Episode 26

From Renewable Energy to Web3 with Ryan Zurrer

Unblock'd Podcast: From Renewable Energy to Web3 with Ryan Zurrer

Summary:

In this episode, Dr. Jemma Green and co-host Anthony Perl sit down with Ryan Zurrer, a former renewable energy executive turned Web3 pioneer and crypto investor. Ryan shares his journey from managing large-scale wind projects in Brazil to becoming a key player in the world of Bitcoin, Ethereum, and NFT art. The conversation covers the intersection of energy and blockchain, the evolution of NFTs, and the future of digital art and decentralized finance.

Guest:

  • Ryan Zurrer: Founder of Dialectic and Vine Ventures, early investor in Ethereum, MakerDAO, Polkadot, Filecoin, and more. NFT art collector and advocate for digital artists.

Key Topics Discussed:

  • Ryan’s transition from renewable energy in Brazil to full-time crypto investing
  • How Bitcoin solved personal remittance challenges and sparked his interest in crypto
  • Early investments in Ethereum and involvement in the DeFi movement
  • The rise of NFTs and their impact on digital art and artist collectibility
  • Why top digital artists choose Ethereum for minting their work
  • The role of tokenization in energy markets and the future of carbon credits
  • The evolution of decentralized finance (DeFi) and real-world asset tokenization
  • Ryan’s work with Dialectic, Vine Ventures, and the “one of one” NFT art collection
  • The importance of machine learning and automation in capital allocation
  • The future of NFTs beyond art, including real estate, legal contracts, and event access
  • The launch of Macina, on-chain infrastructure for capital allocators

Notable Quotes:

  • “The lowest cost of energy wins in the end.”
  • “NFTs solved a real problem for digital artists: provenance and collectibility.”
  • “We probably don’t have our end state blockchain yet—the winner may not even exist.”
  • “Compound interest is the strongest force in the universe.”

UnBlock'd podcast with Dr. Jemma Green

For more information on Dr. Jemma Green

Visit: https://www.powerledger.io/

Or connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jemmagreen/


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Produced by: Podcasts Done For You

View this episode on YouTube @PodcastsDoneForYou_clients

Transcript
Anthony Perl:

From renewable energy to Web3, Ryan Zurrer on Bitcoin,

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Ethereum, and the NFT Art Revolution.

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In this episode, Dr.

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Jemma Green sits down with Ryan Zurrer,

former renewable energy executive

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turned Web3 pioneer, who shares

his journey from managing gigawatts

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scale wind projects in Brazil to

becoming a full-time crypto investor.

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Ryan reveals how this.

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Discovering Bitcoin solved his personal

remittance challenges, his strateg

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early investments in Ethereum, and how

he's revolutionizing the art world.

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Through NFTs, they explore why top digital

artists exclusively choose Ethereum for

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their work and how Ryan's one of one

collection is helping digital artists

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take their rightful place in Art Cannon.

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I'm your co-host Anthony Pearl, and

whether you're an investor or a startup

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looking for insights, it's time to get.

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Unblocked.

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Jemma Green: Welcome to Unblocked.

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Ryan, thanks so much for joining us today.

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Date me out.

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Pleasure.

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Appreciate it.

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We were preparing for this

conversation and we saw you had

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a background in solar and wind.

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Mm-hmm.

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And energy, and obviously now you work

in Web3, managing Dialectic and Vine, and

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we were interested to know how did you.

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Traverse from that field into

your current areas of work?

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Ryan Zurrer: Yeah, so in the late two

thousands and:

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fairly large renewables company in Brazil.

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We had about a gigawatt

portfolio across wind and solar.

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Wind certainly captured zeitgeist

and grew a lot from the:

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era and the fall of Ake Batista.

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But before that, Brazil was really a

country on the up and up, especially

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with respect to renewables.

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And so I was lucky enough to

be right place, right time.

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And

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Jemma Green: you were living there?

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Ryan Zurrer: Yeah, I was living

there and building some of the early

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projects, but there was no expectation

that the market would take off.

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Uh, and, and that was 2008.

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And within three years it was the

third largest annual install base

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globally behind US and China.

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And so it was a wonderful time to

be there and working in renewables

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and the wind regime there allowed

us to really push new frontiers for

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height against sheer factor and.

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And so it was a wonderful thought.

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Jemma Green: Amazing.

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And how did you make the

transition from energy into Web3

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Ryan Zurrer: to living in Brazil?

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I became acutely aware of the cost

of, of remittance with sending money

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home for a cottage in Canada that

I've owned for a number of years, and.

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The discovery of Bitcoin immediately

clicked as a way to get around the

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draconian remittance in Brazil.

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So I took the proverbial trip

down the rabbit hole in:

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immediately seeing its use case

for me as a consumer in Brazil that

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faced this very unfortunate problem.

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Cost of remittance, robs a lot of wealth

from a lot of people in the world.

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And then.

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From there, the trajectory for people

as they get into crypto often follows

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a similar pursuit in that an increasing

amount of time and capital is dedicated

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to crypto until you just realize that you

have a completely irresponsible amount of

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your time and a completely irresponsible

percentage for capital tied up in crypto.

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And so in.

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Early 2015, I went to my board and

told them that I would be moving on

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and focusing full-time in crypto.

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And at that time, Ethereum was

this very like pure, intellectually

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intriguing community that I wanted

to just spend all my time in.

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If you would've asked me in

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I said, no, this will be what

I'll do the rest of my life.

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It's important.

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I'm good at it.

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I've had a lot of people put a lot

into my training and I enjoyed it.

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Felt very meaningful, but.

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You know, then you take the trip

down the Bitcoin rabbit hole and

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everything changes overnight.

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And so the transition

was a very clean cut.

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And when I went into crypto, I told

myself, well, crypto is the space

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that's moving the fastest on the planet.

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And I know energy to be one of the

slowest moving industries on the planet.

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And so these two, you know, vehicles.

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Just are not compatible with each other.

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At least not in that cycle.

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And so I made the distinct decision to

not do anything crossover crypto energy.

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But I think, you know, now we're

starting to see some really

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interesting use cases emerge in

the crossover of crypto and energy.

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Jemma Green: Yeah.

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I think in with defi and

energy contracts and.

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Environmental commodities as well, that

the intersection there is more obvious

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to move at a scale than with like

traditional energy, which as you say, is

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kind of like moves at a glacial speed.

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Ryan Zurrer: Yeah.

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Uh, certainly you can see that for

compatibility or crossover of energy

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credits across different markets.

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Tokenization is the

eventual solution for those.

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Um, so that there can be

homogeneous, uh, carbon.

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Credit markets, but then they can trade

against each other seamlessly globally.

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I think we all know that that's the

future that we'll find ourselves in.

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I wrote a white paper about how to create

a global carbon credit market in early

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2016, and some, some different startups

popped up along the way based on that,

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and I was happy to, you know, hear it

and see it, but felt very strongly in

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that cycle, that kind of 2017 cycle that.

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Like real world infrastructure

and the crossover of

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tokenization wasn't quite ready.

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It appears now that we're entering

into an era where, where things

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feel ready for that use case.

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Jemma Green: Yeah.

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I think that has been our experience.

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Like when we set up Power Ledger

in:

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25 companies that we saw at least

that popped up in this mm-hmm.

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Field, and most of them disappeared.

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I think there's only

us and one other left.

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Yeah.

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And.

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There various versions of thesis around

this topic, but not really understanding

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that it was more of a marathon than

a sprint, I think in many cases.

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And you know, how to kind of

develop products and test them in

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the market in readiness for the

the moment that I also think we're

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kind of entering into now as well.

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So yeah, it's been interesting seeing

that and obviously working in the

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field through that period where

a lot of people wished and hoped

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that it would happen sooner, but.

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One of our major shareholders, he's

invested, his name's built high and he's

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invested in quite a lot of companies

with longer thesis attached to it.

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And he said that he thinks with AI

right now and the energy demand.

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The growth in demand that this could be a

catalyst for changing the way that energy

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is priced and delivered to the market in a

similar way to like the Telecommunication

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deregulation Act of 1996.

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Mm-hmm.

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That before in the us you know, that

saw I, you know, many ISPs set up and

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the way phone calls and, you know,

data was priced and delivered change.

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So I think that we're getting

closer to a time, it's a question

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of what will be the catalyst.

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Where it will happen first.

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Do you have a view on that?

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Ryan Zurrer: Yeah.

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So the primary stakeholder that you

have to get over the line is the highly

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regulated distribution utilities, correct?

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Yes.

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Right.

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The kinda like inflection point

sits at the distribution, utilities

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having adoption because in most

markets the regulated monopolies.

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You know, they're inundated with

compliance lawyers that have been

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holding this back for a long time.

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But now just the overwhelming

demand is gonna cause a sea change.

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That fortunately, is also coming with

respect to regulation as well, and

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I think we're starting to see the

first indicators of that in America.

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But that will spread.

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Sooner rather than later globally.

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And so I'm, I'm pretty excited about

that overall, that we're finally seeing

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the sea change in the distribution

utilities, which are the key ones,

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transmission players and generators.

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They always would've signed up for it.

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Totally.

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I, I, you know, I was, yeah.

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And ISP and a generator

for a number of years.

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I was very excited about it, but I

knew that I had spent enough time

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working with distribution utilities

that I knew the reality of being

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in inside of one, and that they

would be the last domino default.

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Hopefully, I think we're at that time.

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Jemma Green: Interesting.

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I mean, it sounds like you are tracking

what's going on in the energy industry,

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industry notionally, but in the work

that you're doing now, is there any

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intersection with energy in any meaningful

sense or is that the new line of work has

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ended up being just new areas of focus?

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Ryan Zurrer: Yeah.

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When I made the leap in in 2015

full-time, I wanted that kind of clean

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cut and frankly, the return profile

of crypto so outstrips even the best.

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Like successes in, in energy that it

just didn't make sense to put a lot of

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capital to work in energy, you know,

so, so today it's not a focus, but

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at the same time, it's something that

I continue to follow really closely.

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I'm particularly excited about solar as

just like, you know, levelized cost of

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energy winner in the end and just like.

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The lowest cost of energy

win wins in the end.

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Even with some of the innovations in like

modular nuclear or fusion on the horizon

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or things like that, I feel solar just

becomes a really like nuts and bolts, easy

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way to capture generation close enough to

distribution that you immediately solve

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the transmission problem and as long as

you can get storage, right, which I spent

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a lot of time in the two thousands, then.

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You know, I think that's a

big part of the solution.

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And as we get below kind of 2

cents per kilowatt hour, LCOE

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on solar, I think a lot of these

technologies begin to converge.

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Jemma Green: Yeah.

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Even with the total cost of energy,

including storage might be higher.

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You're saying that

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Ryan Zurrer: Yeah.

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If you can get generation down low 3

cents and then say you're, you have a, an

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effective extra cost, but it's only on.

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Like post leveling of say, another

three to 5 cents for energy storage,

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which we're still, we're further away

from that than we are from 3 cents.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So generation, right?

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So storage becomes really

the technical bottleneck.

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The good thing is like the

solution is there, right?

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Like solid state batteries are

scaling up enough of a pace that

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we, we will get there over time.

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Mm-hmm.

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We have to be patient.

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Uh, and that's the, the pace of energy.

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Jemma Green: Yeah.

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Indeed.

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When you decided to dive into

in:

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initial projects and endeavors?

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Are they the ones you're working on now?

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Are they other things?

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Ryan Zurrer: Yeah, in in many ways, yes.

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So I started deploying capital

specifically in the Ethereum ecosystem.

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At that time world of made the first

investment into what is now maker do.

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Also co-wrote that white paper and really

loves kind of the grandfather moment of

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Defi, which is the primary focus today.

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And certainly.

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Of the like six use cases of

crypto that have captured traction.

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Um, I think Defi and decentralized debt

is, is one of the most exciting ones.

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And so that remains

very core to my passion.

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But then was writing other angel checks

in the Ethereum ecosystem and met

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all of Carlson we, a few weeks after

he started, uh, poly Chin Capital

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and came on as the first employee.

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And you know, a lot of the projects

that we underwrote at that time,

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creating the saft and then, you know.

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Putting some of the first capital into

different token projects for was a, a

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really fun, credible moment in the space.

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And, and so a lot of those projects

I'm still involved with today and

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I'm still very proud shareholder

of, of poly chain capital and, and

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the work that they do is great.

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Jemma Green: Amazing.

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What about the projects that

you've invested in that have

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become most interesting kind of

shapeshifters in the web free space?

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Could you tell us about some

of the, the companies that you.

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Ryan Zurrer: Yeah, so earlier, first money

in the door in kind of chronologically

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Ethereum maker, Dao polka dot file

coin, Tezos, Solana, ax Infinity,

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Rory Capital, a number of others made

approximately 200 investments over the

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course of now 12 years in the space.

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And it's really been interesting to.

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See it all on vault and be as

excited about many of the use

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cases as we were at that time.

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You know, as I mentioned, there's

six use cases that have traction

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in crypto that are exciting.

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There's the non sovereign store value,

which I think Bitcoin has kind of won on.

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There's stable coins of which a little

less than two thirds of all stable

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coins sit on Ethereum and there's

decentralized capital formation.

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So it was ICOs in 2017 era, I

think we'll see a comeback of ICOs

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in tokenized capital formation.

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We also had kind of the meme coin

blip last year, although waning

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in that, accrued to Solana.

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But still a lot happening there.

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In Ethereum, there is, uh,

decentralized debt or defi.

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And then from there there is

digital provenance of, of digital

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arc and finally real world assets.

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And that real world

assets thing is really.

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The latest emerging use

case to capture traction.

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There is a lot of hope around that

in the:

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finally seeing, you know, a path

where all this stuff feels legal.

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And feels like we can move forward

with innovation without the

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weight of overregulation or, or

actually under regulation and,

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and just like lack of clarity.

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So five of those six use cases are

really dominated by Ethereum, and I

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find myself now, you know, celebrating

Ethereum's 10th anniversary with a lot of.

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Renewed focus and

interesting EUM ecosystem.

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Yeah.

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Jemma Green: Aha.

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I was, that was actually gonna be

my next question around Ethereum.

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What's your view on Ethereum?

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Because many new projects are,

as a default, going to Solana.

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Mm-hmm.

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And you obviously mentioned you invested

in Solana, so you're obviously a

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believer in it in certain instances.

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I'm curious to know how you see that

unfolding, particularly as like level twos

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were touted as this kind of great solution

to the lack of speed of Ethereum, but.

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Solving that problem presented

a whole host of new problems.

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Mm-hmm.

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Ryan Zurrer: Indeed, I have not gotten

the traction, especially correct.

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We look at Defi, more than three quarters

of defi still exists on main chain.

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Yes.

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That to the great surprise

of us all, quite frankly.

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However, there are two data

points that I cannot stop thinking

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about with respect to Ethereum.

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One is that when you go to.

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Deeply involved technical

conferences or speak with people

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who are, are really pushing the

technical boundaries of this space.

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Most of it is kind of in

reference back to Ethereum.

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Whether it's in zero knowledge space

or, or a whole host of other use

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cases, most of the really smart devs

continue to be focused on Ethereum.

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The other non-obvious use case that

most people don't understand, but

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I've had a privilege purview into is

when you talk with top tier digital

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artists who are minting, you know,

provenance of their digital art on chain.

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And that's a really interesting

use case because that that

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cohort of people didn't have.

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Collectibility for their art

until the advent of NFTs.

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If you talk with a top tier digital

artist and ask them, will they

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mint on any other Chang besides

Ethereum, the answer is resoundingly.

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A strong no.

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Interesting.

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Very strong.

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No.

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If you ask like a Al or a, or a Beep

or Holly Hernan or a whole range of

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other artists to, on any other Chang,

they, they wouldn't even consider it.

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That's a really important point because.

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This is their life's work.

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They care very deeply about

its longevity over all things.

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And when an artist thinks deeply

about the longevity of their work

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that they're putting out into the

world, they only choose Ethereum,

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which I find to be a very interesting,

non-obvious, but very telling data point

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of Ethereum's importance to the world.

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Jemma Green: Yeah, I mean, I think that.

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What you're saying is this sec around

art Ethereum is very important.

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What they're effectively leveraging though

is the stability of the network that's

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provided by many other projects that you

know, it's not all being provided and

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won't all be provided by the art sector.

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I mean, if many other projects in other

sectors were to form a different view than

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equally or by extension, artists may start

to see the Ethereum ecosystem differently.

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Ryan Zurrer: For sure.

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I mean, that could change and you know,

new chains could pop up and I continue

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to be very open-minded about it.

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I've said for many years that we probably

don't have our end state chain, right?

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Like the, the winner, so to speak,

probably doesn't even exist yet.

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That may even still be the case today.

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But with all the data points in

hand today, what we see when people

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are playing a really long game and.

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Want to be surrounded by technical

sophistication and charity.

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Usually they're choosing Ethereum

in:

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see any other, any other chains

realistically threatening that.

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There are some interesting things

saying like in value accrual across

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projects and ecosystems where.

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You know, now we can be more on a bashed

about value accruing to token holders.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so change, getting traction with

that I think is really interesting.

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But right now it seems like it will

be some kind of extension or again,

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in reference to Ethereum in some way.

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Yeah.

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Um, so that general ecosystem

certainly is the most intellectually

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engaging for me right now.

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Jemma Green: Great, and I haven't

heard that you and the rationale

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expressed before like that, so it's very

interesting to get that perspective.

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You are obviously deeply

involved in the art space.

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Could you tell us a little bit around what

you're doing right now in an at the NFT

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Ryan Zurrer: space?

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Yeah, so I came, I sort of stumbled

into art very indirectly, where in

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2019 I was running around the space

sort of saying, Hey guys, it's like.

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Sort of the same group of us trading

the same tokens back and forth

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between each other since around 2013.

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We're not bringing in meaningful

amounts of new energy and new

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cohorts of people into the space.

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And NFTs was a very interesting moment

for me because you saw it solve a real

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problem for digital artists right before.

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NFTs, you couldn't really tell

what the original work of digital

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art is or what the copy is.

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And so then, you know, there's always

this question of provenance, and because

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of that, it lacked collectability.

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And with the lack of collectability,

it lacked, say, compelling price point

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to capture, uh, people's attention.

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Most famously, I think before Bele

started selling NFTs for millions

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of dollars, the highest he ever

got for an everyday was $110.

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Wow.

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Right.

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So you see that like crucible moment of

digital scarcity conveying collectability,

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and then with collectability you

get the establishment of value and

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then obviously you get zeitgeist

with that for better or worse.

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And so it brought in a new cohort

of people like you went to NFT

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and digital art events like, you

know, it wasn't the same old folks.

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It was a very different energy and

vibe and something I was really

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excited about and remained so.

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So as things unfolded.

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With one of one, we really kind of

circled around and centered on a niche of.

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Helping digital artists take

the rightful place in art canon.

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I took the signal from a wonderful

friend and mentor just over here

364

:

in Anne Sig, who really rewrote art

canon to include a generation of

365

:

Chinese artists that were completely

forgotten before he started collecting

366

:

them and, and had the, the vision.

367

:

And so with his guidance, we kind of

observed that digital artists today do

368

:

not have the rightful place in our can.

369

:

Um, that will change.

370

:

And so one of one has worked.

371

:

With major museums doing

exhibitions of our portfolio

372

:

of artists, and they have been.

373

:

Overwhelming to say the least,

374

:

Jemma Green: hugely successful.

375

:

Um,

376

:

Ryan Zurrer: the, the Raffi Canol

machine hallucinations MoMA exhibition

377

:

broke a range of MoMA's records, um,

brought in almost 3 million people.

378

:

It's extended five times.

379

:

We were not prepared for, for that

kind of response, but what it did

380

:

is it woke museums up to the fact

that this inspiring digital art.

381

:

Is one of the solutions to bring

people back to museums after COVID.

382

:

And as a result, major museums around

the world started getting excited very,

383

:

very quickly and started moving at a

pace that they'd never moved before.

384

:

Right.

385

:

Which is kind of why I'm like optimistic

about, about distribution utilities is

386

:

'cause like I've watched this old guard

industry click and kind of like start

387

:

to move at a pace that they never moved.

388

:

Like the MoMA show we got done from.

389

:

The first day through the door to

it being installed was eight months.

390

:

Right.

391

:

That was like unheard of in, in art

Guggenheim, Bilbao, uh, where Rafika has

392

:

recently broken their attendance record.

393

:

That was the turnaround on

that was like four months.

394

:

The winds of Yan Elk work was like,

you know, three, we've had humid one

395

:

on this global tour that that has

really turned into kind of its own.

396

:

Its own adventure, uh, where,

where people and I get to go

397

:

around to these different places.

398

:

Right now it's at Maori in Japan and we've

started doing live performative updates

399

:

for every chapter update of Human one.

400

:

So it's been something that I could not

have predicted, but I'm deeply grateful

401

:

that museums have decided that, you

know, they want to hear what we have

402

:

to say and they wanna show our works.

403

:

Um, and so we're, you know,

we're happy to oblige.

404

:

Jemma Green: Hmm.

405

:

Amazing.

406

:

So yeah, you kind of became them

of your own success and changed the

407

:

way the logistics happened within

museums so they can get themselves

408

:

organized, bring it up faster than

ever before, recognizing they're gonna

409

:

get attendance like never seen before.

410

:

Ryan Zurrer: Yeah.

411

:

It was one of these things where even

very early on when, when certain major

412

:

institutions would say, ah, yeah, we

can like plan for like 27, we would

413

:

immediately cut the conversation very

quickly and we said, look, whatever

414

:

you're gonna plan for two years out.

415

:

The only thing I can guarantee

you is that it doesn't matter

416

:

and it's not good to be upset.

417

:

So it's, we're not like, it's not like

reasonable, it's not even a good idea

418

:

for you to work on a kind of timeline.

419

:

Mm.

420

:

And and then really, like, the question

in the back of my mind was always,

421

:

well, if moment can get it done in

eight months, what's your excuse?

422

:

Yeah.

423

:

Right.

424

:

And, and so that they set the

standard as they, they do.

425

:

And, you know, and so it's much

more a credit to them and their

426

:

execution than anything we're doing.

427

:

: Mm-hmm.

428

:

Jemma Green: How many pieces

have you got in your collection?

429

:

Ryan Zurrer: So the entire

collection is about 400, although

430

:

there's sort of a range of things.

431

:

There's, there's kind

of a dozen core artists.

432

:

So we spend most of our time with,

these are very like involved projects,

433

:

so there isn't kind of like infinite.

434

:

You know, time, resources to spend

with each artist and art like crypto,

435

:

like many other collectible spaces, a

lot of the value and attention accrues

436

:

to the upper crust of the space.

437

:

So, you know, dealing with people on, and

Sam Sprat and Holly Hernan, like that is

438

:

more than full about job on its own, and

the focus has really centered around this.

439

:

Museum quality, digital arc kind of

on the recent years of mantra has been

440

:

fewer but better, uh, kind of thing.

441

:

And so collecting activities

has, has, has focused eccentric.

442

:

Jemma Green: Amazing.

443

:

Anthony Perl: I wouldn't mind just

jumping in with one quick question, Ryan.

444

:

I'm fascinated by the progression

that is the definition of what art

445

:

is because, you know, how is that

battle between traditional art

446

:

and, you know, this new development

in art and, and even valuing it.

447

:

Ryan Zurrer: Mm-hmm.

448

:

I'm a bit spoiled by the mentors

and wonderful people that I have

449

:

around me guiding my path in art.

450

:

So we don't spend a lot of time or

mind space on this question of like, is

451

:

digital art, art or that type of thing?

452

:

You know, we kind of have

have this open-minded view of

453

:

what an artist deems art is.

454

:

Art, and then like in that category

of art, if you want to compare

455

:

and contrast against different.

456

:

Categories In contemporary art, that's

fine, but not that all things are art,

457

:

but all things created by artists are.

458

:

And so I don't myself see a

lot of the debate of like, ah,

459

:

this, you know, doesn't count.

460

:

Or the blocking of digital artists

as legitimate and, and our can.

461

:

I know it exists because that's

why, you know, we're, we're

462

:

on this mission, but maybe.

463

:

Maybe I'm not the person that people

waste time in this argument with.

464

:

'cause I just like, don't

waste time in that argument.

465

:

It's like, you know, by what standard

would you deem something like

466

:

refi's machine hallucinations or,

or human one, not an extraordinary

467

:

work of, of contemporary art?

468

:

You know, in, in the case of human

one, people ask me sometimes like,

469

:

oh look, what do you think of

the purchase now five years in?

470

:

And I usually respond by saying.

471

:

Tell me, uh, work of contemporary

arc made this century that has

472

:

had the museum tour and reception

of human what, literally thorough

473

:

Jemma Green: and parallel and

474

:

Ryan Zurrer: so it, yeah, I remain

really happy with the work and the

475

:

advantages that this new category affords.

476

:

So if you're gonna collect, say,

traditional 20th century contemporary

477

:

art, Warhols and Basquiats and

things like that, you have no

478

:

relationship with the artist.

479

:

You have this like.

480

:

Really deep kind of market dynamic

that also has capital influences

481

:

that greatly eclipse, uh, your

own ability as a collector.

482

:

And in this category, I get to

connect directly with the artists.

483

:

Most of what I acquire is directly from

the artists and build this relationship.

484

:

And because their art is

evolving, also collaborate, and.

485

:

Like offer inputs and things like

that in a, in a respectful manner.

486

:

Obviously the work remains the

brainchild of the artist, but there's

487

:

an open-mindedness to the relationship

and collaboration that I would not

488

:

choose or I would not trade for.

489

:

Traditional contemporary.

490

:

In fact, I don't even understand

how people like only collect

491

:

dead artists from galleries.

492

:

It's like, like you're

missing the fun, man.

493

:

Jemma Green: You have no art

from dead artists in your house?

494

:

Ryan Zurrer: No.

495

:

Jemma Green: As soon as they

die, they get the Arctic.

496

:

Yeah.

497

:

Oh,

498

:

Ryan Zurrer: that's it.

499

:

I mean that is like a lot of

people's thesis and strategy.

500

:

Oh really?

501

:

Oh yeah.

502

:

There's a whole category of collectors who

like collect like kinda artists in their

503

:

eighties and nineties waiting for the

death certificate to then commercialize,

504

:

Jemma Green: oh yeah, the value goes up

'cause there's no more, uh, being created.

505

:

That's

506

:

Ryan Zurrer: theory.

507

:

It's like still, it's just not something

that I find intellectually compelling.

508

:

With

509

:

Jemma Green: art, you also work

and manage funds and you've got

510

:

algorithms that optimize crypto.

511

:

So yeah, through very different worlds.

512

:

Are they similar in any way?

513

:

We'd like to talk about your work with

dialectic and Vine Ventures, but do you

514

:

see them as intimately linked in any way?

515

:

Ryan Zurrer: Oh, a bit.

516

:

Very much so.

517

:

So one of one, the art collection sits

on top of the machine that is dialectic.

518

:

Dialectic being this yielding machine.

519

:

This compounding machine affords

different interesting use cases where

520

:

you can experiment and what I think are

actually very important, intellectual

521

:

experiments, and I'll explain why.

522

:

So in one of one, we take debt

against the portfolio and then we

523

:

put it into our high yield machine,

and then it creates a yield.

524

:

The spreads we look for are

typically double digits.

525

:

That's unthinkable in our lending

world, um, historically, but because

526

:

you use the speed of crypto and

crypto primitives, you're able

527

:

to get much higher collateralize

528

:

Jemma Green: than a get.

529

:

Ah, so

530

:

Ryan Zurrer: you collateralize

and it produce a cash flow,

531

:

and that's something that.

532

:

Again, with the generalized machine

compounding machine, you're allowed

533

:

to do these important experiments.

534

:

Why is this experiment important

beyond just the self-sustaining

535

:

collection, which is already great?

536

:

It's important because institutions

will likely have to start seeking new

537

:

forms of sustainability over time,

and certain institutions that have.

538

:

Tens, billions of dollars worth of

capital assets and the arc that they

539

:

hold will be able to seek an important

yield that will likely cover a really

540

:

substantial part of budget, and then

take pressure off of either states that

541

:

you know, no longer make overtures as

much to the arts or individual donors.

542

:

: Oh,

543

:

Ryan Zurrer: and so this change, this

experiment in showing how an institutional

544

:

art collection can create a cash flow

and that cash flow then can fund.

545

:

Exhibition activities as well as further

acquisitions of collecting activities

546

:

is sort of a demonstration project to

a range of cultural institutions, the

547

:

world over that this is possible, um,

you have to have that the machine, but

548

:

as long as you have a good yielding

machine, you, you can do this.

549

:

And I, I know that a lot of institutions

are watching this very keenly.

550

:

Play out.

551

:

So we consider the experiment

there very important.

552

:

But dialectic broadly is a yielding

machine where we yield on Bitcoin

553

:

beef and US dollar, mostly in Defi,

but through a range of strategies.

554

:

And we bring a very focused

approach to risk management.

555

:

And you know, institutionalization

of de five got layer of

556

:

insurance and self-insurance

and a layer of automation that.

557

:

To my knowledge, nobody else

has, and certainly the, the

558

:

strongest data set in defi.

559

:

So we've been using, you know,

our decisions have been driven

560

:

by machine learning since 2021.

561

:

We didn't wait around for LMS

to, to be using machine learning

562

:

our everyday activities.

563

:

And so that produces what we understand

to be the, the best risk adjusted yield

564

:

in defi across those three assets.

565

:

And the mantra is that compound interest

is the strongest force in the universe.

566

:

You know, we know this is true

in nature of the golden ratio.

567

:

We know it's true in

finance or compound returns.

568

:

The dialectic has also proven that

it's true in relationships, in

569

:

skill development, and in code base.

570

:

All the core team remain

intact and highly motivated.

571

:

Uh, real trust has emerged over time

and the code continues to compound

572

:

and people continue to compound on

themselves, which is really, really

573

:

gratifying as an entrepreneur.

574

:

: Mm.

575

:

Jemma Green: And so what you're saying,

if I understand correctly, is that.

576

:

The NFT collection created

at the initial capital.

577

:

Was deployed.

578

:

Oh, no, no, no.

579

:

Oh no.

580

:

Sorry, I didn't.

581

:

Yeah.

582

:

Yeah.

583

:

Ryan Zurrer: We, we had the machine

anyways, and the digital art collection

584

:

was just this like weekend side project

that kind of popped up at:

585

:

we just sort of, were doing Uber,

doing it together and it's taken on

586

:

a life of its own, uh, but the core,

and in fact that's kind of been.

587

:

At times with one of one is, you know,

the outside world's been really excited by

588

:

one of one, and the things that, that it

does working with artists, but like 95% of

589

:

my time is focused on dialectic and there

is a frustration where most people wanna

590

:

talk first and foremost about the art.

591

:

And I'm kind of like.

592

:

You guys realize we have a

machine that makes money.

593

:

Oh.

594

:

Sort to talk, go about the art.

595

:

Jemma Green: Well, I think I

might've asked you that on the

596

:

train when I bumped, didn't you?

597

:

I said, oh, what would you like to

be written on your, your Graystone

598

:

that, you know, pioneered like

amazing things in the art space.

599

:

Or, you know, you've got do digit

returns for, you know, X amount of years.

600

:

And you said, oh, the double digit

returns like way more important.

601

:

I mean, I, I took it with the

tongue, but I think there's some.

602

:

Of deep truth in that as well.

603

:

But you know people,

604

:

Ryan Zurrer: I don't want name

605

:

Jemma Green: No you, but it's kind of

ironic that there's so much attention

606

:

on the art space, but yet you want to

focus your attention in the fun business.

607

:

Ryan Zurrer: I mean, the yielding

activities are really interesting and.

608

:

I was in in a panel in San Francisco

in:

609

:

other asset allocators, including Richard

Kreb from Numerati, like, what will

610

:

the end state of capital allocators be?

611

:

And across the four of us, we all

repeated the exact same thing, which

612

:

is that eventually we'll just hand over

our capital to the machines that will.

613

:

Just have far superior information and

be able to execute in a superior fashion.

614

:

And that will be the best compounding on

your assets such that we will laugh at

615

:

the idea that we used to like give money

to a guy and that guy would like think up

616

:

in his mind ideas of where to invest it.

617

:

Like it's ridiculous that a singular

even group of mines will, will be the

618

:

long-term solution for capital allocation.

619

:

And so Dialectic has always

just been been trying to build.

620

:

A sliver of that end state machine

and the on chain infrastructure

621

:

that we've built with dialectic and

now we'll release to the world with

622

:

Macina is just incredibly exciting.

623

:

Like the energy in our

offices is, is really high.

624

:

Jemma Green: I wanna go back to art.

625

:

Sure.

626

:

I guess as again, describe magnet action

to talk about some of the products that

627

:

can emerge off the back of NFTs that

could grow the space even more For sure.

628

:

And I think that.

629

:

Has been what you've observed in terms

of artists that were not able to monetize

630

:

their art and are now, you know, created

a whole new asset class and addressable

631

:

and obtainable market just from the NFTs.

632

:

But there's a lot of talk about

like associated products, like

633

:

what does the NFT conferred

besides ownership of the art?

634

:

For example, you know, first

in line accused to attend.

635

:

Exhibitions or mm-hmm.

636

:

You know, being given a particular

status that allows you access to

637

:

the artists, or, I'm sure there's a

whole range of other things For sure.

638

:

How would you characterize all

of that and how significant do

639

:

you feel that it actually is?

640

:

Ryan Zurrer: Yeah, so NFTs just being

sold as essentially a certificate

641

:

of provenance of digital arc in that

first sort of:

642

:

Is one of dozens of use cases

that are immediately addressable

643

:

or made interesting with NFTs.

644

:

Anything that is essentially non fungible.

645

:

So non dividable effectively will be

an NFT that includes real estate deeds.

646

:

And stock certificates and legal

contracts and various other things

647

:

that cannot be divided, including time

sensitive use cases like say entry to

648

:

a club or entry to an event or tiered

entry into, to different things.

649

:

And those are, I think,

like continuing to evolve.

650

:

They probably evolved slower in the

last few years than, than I think we

651

:

would've hoped for in the early 2020s.

652

:

But there are a range of

interesting startups using.

653

:

Like some form of non fungible token

that has part of their use case.

654

:

In fact, one example for us is

Mac, you know, so macing is our

655

:

on chain infrastructure for asset

management where dialectic will

656

:

offer its yielding funds on chain.

657

:

Mm-hmm.

658

:

And token incentivized and the sort of

leaderboard of LPs and Macina will also

659

:

receive a reward of a rafik genal, NFT.

660

:

: Oh, and

661

:

Ryan Zurrer: so we're starting to see

this like crossover, that's it, of, of

662

:

like the art, you know, being earned

rather than bought or just like different

663

:

games I wish I could share with you.

664

:

But in the next few months we will

also release an A project to the

665

:

world around a really important

piece of contemporary art that we're.

666

:

Very grateful that the artists came

to us to be the steward of that

667

:

will, again, use NFTs in more of a

community building fashion around

668

:

this iconic work of art rather than

just be the certificate of provenance.

669

:

And so again, what I, I see is a lot of

experimentation in this area, and I remain

670

:

very excited about all the different use

cases beyond Certificate of Provenance,

671

:

Jemma Green: Uhhuh, and how big.

672

:

Would you say that market is

right now and what do you foresee

673

:

it becoming in the near return?

674

:

Ryan Zurrer: Yeah, I mean, it fluctuates

quite wildly and you would have to

675

:

also estimate a bunch of things that

haven't trade hands, but you could

676

:

say that the total like capital value

represented by NFTs is somewhere

677

:

in the single digit billions, kind

of like a four to 7 billion today.

678

:

Mm-hmm.

679

:

And that goes across all assets.

680

:

There is certainly a thousand X from here.

681

:

$4 trillion within a decade will be

secured by NFTs and not 4 billion.

682

:

It's important to remember a

specific use case in that the natural

683

:

transaction medium or artificial

intelligence will be blockchains.

684

:

Blockchains will enable faster

throughput of transactions led by ai.

685

:

Then banks will ever allow, like the

banks will not even be over their

686

:

own anxiety before the AI has just

figured it out using blockchains.

687

:

So as we've, as we have AI driven

capital allocators working with larger

688

:

capital pools that have to be secured

by dead and defi and so on and so

689

:

forth, like real estate assets, you

know, once you're onboarding real

690

:

estate, quickly get into the hundreds

of billions or trillions of dollars.

691

:

And I think that's

unquestionably where we're going.

692

:

Jemma Green: It sounds like you

think that this is gonna happen.

693

:

It won't.

694

:

It will disrupt the incumbent players

as opposed to them adopting the

695

:

technology and perhaps self disrupting

some of their existing ways of working.

696

:

Ryan Zurrer: I mean, it's

difficult to predict, right?

697

:

I think it, like naturally it

won't, this like some incumbents

698

:

will make the leap and some won't.

699

:

Mm-hmm.

700

:

Right.

701

:

Like, you know, certain forward thinking

investment banks will and are getting

702

:

serious about this now, where a range

of like legacy retail commercial banks

703

:

will probably be slow and, you know,

and reduced importance as a result as

704

:

we see like neo banks, you know, get

more aggressive with it as a use case.

705

:

So, uh.

706

:

It's not like it will disrupt,

say, banking as a whole, but

707

:

it will, the complexion of

banking will be very different.

708

:

And this will be seen as a core

technology, not, um, some fringe thing

709

:

that a bunch of cipher punks are into.

710

:

Same thing as like Bitcoin, right?

711

:

If we maybe even take like the last

two years of Bitcoin's kind of real

712

:

adoption now 16 years in, call it.

713

:

And NFTs really started getting kind of

traction in the late:

714

:

that same timeframe, like post a decade.

715

:

But before two decades you, I

think you see widespread adoption.

716

:

: Mm-hmm.

717

:

Jemma Green: Yeah.

718

:

Mainstreaming, we're

starting to say emerge.

719

:

Yeah.

720

:

In the kind of more well

known bits of crypto.

721

:

I think what you're saying also is there's

a lot of stuff happening that's gaining

722

:

significance and traction that's not as

well understood in the mainstream yet.

723

:

Ryan Zurrer: For sure.

724

:

I mean, there continues to

be a lot of experimentation.

725

:

That is still very early

stage, I would say.

726

:

Jemma Green: What are you the things

that you are most focused on for

727

:

the remainder of this year, Ryan?

728

:

Ryan Zurrer: Our focus is Macina

right now and launching macina.

729

:

So Macina is crucial infrastructure

for capital allocators on chain,

730

:

especially as they go cross chain.

731

:

Mm-hmm.

732

:

And Defi is a really natural use case.

733

:

So we'll offer the three dialectic

yielding vehicles, day one on Macina,

734

:

along with some other operators that will

offer some other things on Mackin there.

735

:

But you know, as we see Defi AI agents

emerge, they must have guardrails if.

736

:

Defi AI doesn't have guardrails.

737

:

It will rub more capital than has ever

been rubbed in the history of the space.

738

:

Mm-hmm.

739

:

And so this infrastructure of rails that

incidentally was originally conceptualized

740

:

by the CEO of Macina, Jenna Zinc,

when she built Mell port, I think like

741

:

right here, like in this building.

742

:

Oh, in CB Labs?

743

:

Yeah.

744

:

And, well, no, maybe not CB Labs, but.

745

:

In 20 14, 20 15, me port was

really one of the first projects in

746

:

Ethereum and I was really excited

by Jenna was building a CTO.

747

:

So Macina is really a coming home

moment for her, where finally we have

748

:

like the need and the infrastructure

to have this, you know, this sort of

749

:

like operator environment for asset

managers to be able to deploy capital

750

:

more effectively, have access to more

advanced data and more advanced tooling.

751

:

But then also be able to give confidence

to their investors, their LPs, that

752

:

there are rules in place, there's

insurance in place, there's, you know,

753

:

that kind of institutional capital on

chain being the adults in the room.

754

:

So I'm incredibly excited about Macina.

755

:

It's been kind of a long time coming.

756

:

I would say it's been the last 18

months of us, us building this out.

757

:

But really, you know, for people

like the leader, Jenna, it's been.

758

:

More than a decade of thinking

about this problem and last work.

759

:

Yeah.

760

:

Yeah.

761

:

Jemma Green: You mentioned

some of the guardrails as well.

762

:

What are the kinds of things that can

happen and how can it all go wrong?

763

:

Mm-hmm.

764

:

And obviously, yeah, mark, and did you

know that you called it car in Italian?

765

:

Oh, now it's a car, but

766

:

Ryan Zurrer: Well, so it's a play on,

um, a Portuguese word for machine.

767

:

Oh, right.

768

:

Uhhuh.

769

:

So like it's this on chain mic yielding

machine and everything in dialectic.

770

:

Kind of has this metaphor

of machines and walking.

771

:

Jemma Green: I think that's where

the names originated from as well.

772

:

Yeah,

773

:

Ryan Zurrer: yeah.

774

:

So it was intended to be, you

know, a machine or a vehicle

775

:

in this case, but so today.

776

:

We go and look at the code of every

fool that we'll put capital into.

777

:

And one of the things that creates

red flags immediately, that's high

778

:

risk, is like updateable code or

everything just being controlled by a

779

:

multisig that's effectively controlled

by the same three people sitting in

780

:

the same room, this type of thing.

781

:

And so macular will provide a range

of infrastructure around these

782

:

things so that yielding can be done.

783

:

More securely effectively, and also

that you can securely go cross chain.

784

:

And that's the really important thing

is today most of the vaults that

785

:

you're in are single chain vaults.

786

:

And so when you can start stacking

chain yields on top of each other

787

:

using hyper diversification in a

singular machine, that's really

788

:

where you get the outlier returns.

789

:

That's what we've been doing as a

core business for now five years.

790

:

Mm-hmm.

791

:

Jemma Green: Arbitraging as well.

792

:

Ryan Zurrer: It, yeah, it

opens up arbitrage and a whole

793

:

bunch of other opportunities.

794

:

All those spreads and opportunities

amplify as you go cross chain, right?

795

:

It's all like fairly efficient within EVM,

but then once you're willing and able to

796

:

finally go cross chain, there's much more

compelling spreads that you can capture.

797

:

The problem there is that in today's

environment, you just rely on the

798

:

operator, the capital allocator, to like

be honest, and frankly, because we've.

799

:

In these, these adversarial environments,

often they're not, um, often they'll make

800

:

off with money in some way, shape or form,

especially in cross chain environments.

801

:

And so ing it, what solves that problem.

802

:

Got it.

803

:

The operators can go cross chain, but

they can't like, make off with your

804

:

money just because there are a new chain.

805

:

Jemma Green: Mm-hmm.

806

:

Ryan Zurrer: And that's kind

of a core infrastructure.

807

:

Jemma Green: Gosh.

808

:

Ryan Zurrer: Yeah.

809

:

Jemma Green: And what's your

favorite song at the moment?

810

:

Ryan,

811

:

Ryan Zurrer: uh, Naina.

812

:

Bye.

813

:

It sounds Brazilian but is not.

814

:

It's by these, this DJ pair

called Trin, and it reminds me

815

:

of when I was in the Amazon with

Raffiq visiting the Yano tribe.

816

:

And what was their.

817

:

Geneva Accord moment.

818

:

Um, this, this amazing event that came

together, that refi's art supported,

819

:

that allowed 72 tribes from around

the world to come together and really

820

:

be led by what is the royal family of

a forest, the, the anoa in setting.

821

:

A new direction for how they protect, uh,

their sacred forests and their practices.

822

:

And, and it was just a

really beautiful moment.

823

:

And so it's a song that kinda

reminds me of that moment,

824

:

which was intensely emotional.

825

:

Jemma Green: Amazing.

826

:

Ryan Zurrer: Yeah.

827

:

Jemma Green: Beautiful.

828

:

Thank you so much for doing

you, for having podcast.

829

:

It's very interesting conversation.

830

:

I learned a lot of things I didn't know.

831

:

And it was great to dive into

some of the topics that you are

832

:

very well known for as well.

833

:

Ryan, thank you so much.

834

:

Awesome.

835

:

Anthony Perl: That's all for

this episode of Unblocked.

836

:

Please check out the show notes

for information on Power Ledger

837

:

and other contact information.

838

:

We welcome your comments and

feedback and please hit subscribe

839

:

wherever you are listening.

840

:

This podcast was produced

by podcast Done for you.

841

:

We look forward to your

company next time on Unblocked.

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